external monologue

Andrew,

Mebbe its 'cause I grew up attending DC right to life marches and helping out in operation rescue etc. etc. but in my mind I can't help but feel that abortion is akin to murder. I can't help but feel that its a product of american, consumerist, individualistic, avoid responsibility culture. I can't help but feel on one level that shame is something that should come with getting an abortion, and if its public its public.

But the flip-side is what kristoff gets at in his review. I think many abortions, I have no idea whether its just a few or a majority, do not occur in the selfishly ideal situation, that is some rich party girl who gets knocked up 'cause she irresponsibly sleeps around and therefor gets an abortion. I'm guessing many are far more complex than that, with complex family situations and unhealthy even abusive relationships. That whole side of the coin makes a gut, black & white, flippant response on the abortion issue difficult to give.

I once saw this show on MTV a year or so ago about two girls who got pregnant. The first chose adoption, the second abortion. The show portrayed the former having made the far more difficult choice. In just about any state a woman is required to wait 24-48 hours before she's allowed to sign the adoptions papers forgoing all rights to the baby. Imagine what that's got to be like. 9 months, then 48 hours holding your baby, then giving it up. I can't even fathom it. The show ended with her discussing how she felt she didn't have the maturity and the character to care for this child which is why she gave it up.

In my mind her self-reflection and the strength of character she had to actually go through with it made her mature enough to raise the child. But that's not my point.

The second woman went into the clinic for an afternoon. She went through a period of depression and the show ended with her out partying like she'd be doing earlier.

I know its just one show and only 2 cases, but maybe if the Church stepped up, like New City & Highland do, and have an agressive adoption program we might be able to create a culture where situations like the first girl would obtain far more frequently as opposed to the latter.

OK, back to work.

I suppose the question that emerges from Kristof's article is, if not criminalization, then what? He suggests increased education and contraception, but that still doesn't address how to prevent abortions after a pregnancy starts. My gut feeling, and I hope this doesn't make me hopelessly soft, is that outlawing all abortions is missing the point -- that instead, incentives should be provided for adoptions. Monetary incentives, even.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of flatly banning all abortions, even though, like Josiah, I think it can be safely said to be murder in most cases. I work for a high-rish perinatologist, and I see too many cases where the "life of the mother" distinction is an awfully difficult call. I'm just not comfortable with politicians, particularly the sort of rabid conservatives I grew up with, making medical decisions. I don't think they're smart enough.

But I think that anti-abortion activists, in making abortion an issue of legality, have largely missed their greatest resource: the rapidly developing technology that helps both doctors and mothers more clearly understand what's really going on inside the womb. Public opinion has shifted on abortion in the last ten years. It's no longer seen as a cherished right, but a necessary evil. And I think that's largely due to the greater understanding the average person has of a fetus. It has nothing to do with any of the violent political rhetoric, which is mostly so much partisan bull anyhow.

This is where I think the biggest incentives for adoption actually lie: not in monetary rewards, although those might help, but in having a mother see her child on an ultrasound screen. If I could make any abortion legislation, it would be this: that a mother must make a manditory visit to an obsterician, view her baby, and then wait one week before an abortion. If she's too early in the pregnancy for anything to show up, she should be shown some in-utero photos of what stage of development her baby is at. I'm convinced that if this were how abortion had to function in America, if choice became educated choice, the abortion rate would plummet to nil overnight.

I would just like to note that I was very nearly in TWO photos on this blog from the past week, the one of the banjos and the one of Isaac. As some of you may know, one of my few goals in life is to see that my visage makes this blog more than anyone elses. Andy knows this and in a cruel twist has made my plight much more frustrating than I ever would have imagined. I am going to start my own blog and it won't have pictures of me on it either. It will document the history of two chums, turned mortal enemies through a series of betrayals. It will be called, "John and Andy". Good move, old friend.

Totten, Andy and I are very close friends. We do small group. I give him backrubs, long, slow backrubs. He was in my wedding. I'm also in his upcoming wedding.

How many times have I been on his godforsaken photoblog?

Once.

ONCE!

I wish I had the head of my bass sticking into the occasional photo. I can't even get that.

I get in Andy's photoblog a lot. But I am Jewish and I control the media. What I don't understand, Totten, is that you are Jewish also. Just as Jewish as me, anyway. You should be able to control the media as well. Obviously, you haven't been using your connections.

This is what I am saying Josiah. It is worse to have part of your instrument in Andy's blog than to not be there at all. That's why as of this moment I am involved in a lawsuit against Mr. Andrew Montgomery (if that is his real name) for the removal of each image of mine from his blog lest he pay me royalties every time one of them is accessed. Then when all the photos are gone, I will monopolize the comments board as I have already begun. Everyone go to thequietones.net

Kristof's article seems to commit the fallacy of the "red herring." Instead of addressing the actual issue, whether the fetus is a human person deserving of rights, it brings up the scenario of a world in which abortion was illegal. I suppose it's only natural to make a consequentialist argument in a pleasure-based society, but it's still not right.

That said, I think Mesh's idea to have every pregnant woman obligated to view an ultrasound of her baby is worth our consideration. My wife Emily counsels at a pregnancy center, and is constantly amazed at the sheer ignorance of the pregnant girls who come in. They really have no idea what is inside of their wombs! But Planned Parenthood basically operates by keeping their clients ignorant. For many, the decision for life would be would be made much easier if they simply were faced with the facts.

On a related note, I find it very strange that the fathers of babies have no legal say whatsoever in their mate's decision to get an abortion. I mean, it's their genes too!

Thanks Andy for the article...

- Ken

Andy, I'm sorry to use explitives on your comments... but, WHAT THE FUCK?!

Whoever does not see abortion to be exactly equal to the most extreme murder is either woefully ignorant or insane.

Do women (and couples) find themselves in crisis pregnancies, in which we ought always to show the utmost compassion and sensitivity? Absolutely yes. Can any such troubling circumstances make viciously hacking an innocent child to pieces in cold blood remotely understandable? Absolutely no.

The distinction is not subtle folks.
Wake the fuck up.

Should abortionists, their staff, and all persons involved in child-murder, be prosecuted? Absolutely yes. Will the American public go along with this? I don't care AT ALL. Almost the entire German nation stood around to watch while their Jewish neighbors were hauled off to death camps.

The idea of the Portuguese and Kristof standing arm-in-arm with the spirit of Nazism better give us serious pause, if not make us nauseated.

Face reality, people. Our society is WORSE than Nazi Germany. Deal with it.

andy,

as a person who has a uterus and has given birth... I would like to live in a world where there are no abortions. but i'm quite sure we can't get there by outlawing abortions (hysterical rhetoric doesn't help, either). even under the most ideal circumstances, exceptions to abortion bans would have to be made to protect the health and lives of women in high-risk situations. to do any less would be misogynistic, at best. however, as soon as exceptions are made, abuses will follow. ergo, the best approach to preventing abortion is through education and prevention -- because, of course, if we are to value every life, we must value *every* life, including all of those already in progress.

I actually received an e-mail from a woman this week wherein she stated that she was very "scared" because of the fact that since "Bush (is) giving more and more rights to unborn babies, a woman's right to choose is already just about dismantled."

Now, while I like this person very much, I think the ONLY right an unborn baby has is the right to be born.

When people write me things like this -- obviously (and sadly mistakenly) thinking that I am, in fact, a Liberal -- I get a REAL glimpse into what people really think and want. And then I break into a cold sweat, and think to myself, "Do these people think that the only people who have a right to live are people that will grow up to be just like them, and stand for everything they stand for?"

The left likes to talk about TOLERANCE, but it is I who has to truly TOLERATE the utmost of vicious cruelty, prejudice, hatred, and intolerance EVERY DAY. Not often directly relating to my life, but close enough to touch a nerve.

Disagreement does NOT equal intolerance.
But abortion DOES equal murder.
The catch? It's LEGAL murder.

I'm not one to quote song lyrics in order to make a point, but one of the best songs to address this topic is "Legal Kill" by King's X:

i only know what i believe
the rest is so absurd to me
i close my eyes so i can't see
but the picture just gets clearer everyday

i read somewhere to learn is to remember
and i've learned we all forgot
there was peace in her before
but that was yesterday

but i can see the beauty that is here for me
the chance to live and walk free
from a legal kill

i know your side so very well
it makes no sense that i can tell
the smell of hell is what i smell
and you hand it out with handshakes everyday

i have trouble with the persons with the signs
but i feel the need to make my own
yes there are two ways to be
and truth does not depend on me

but i can feel the fight for life is always real
i cant believe its no big deal
its a legal kill

Dear Ticked,

I have some horse sedatives you can borrow.

Will get them to you soon.

-J

a & co.,

i've been following the dialogue on abortion with some interest the past day or so. somehow i think the further away a particular evil is from our personal experience the easier it is to condemn. when was the last time americans though cutting off a hand for stealing was a good idea? now, i'm not saying that we have some wriggling room to play around with what, in an absolute sense, is right or wrong - just that i've been curious about the evolution of changing opinions in my friends and myself lately - and that we like to find justification for ourselves above all else. that said: when my feelings about something like abortion become more temperate, is that really just a euphamism for the cauterization of my heart against what is hateful to God?

i agree that education of our society would help. i agree that a simple legal solution is not going to practically end something like abortion in the country. would it reduce them? yep. i think it comes down to where one feels convicted to fight battles. does a national government set the tone for how we live our lives? i hope not. in a way, of course it does, we pay taxes, they set down some guidelines that we'd get thrown in jail for ignoring, etc. but i can't help feeling that the solution has to be something more internal. what about all the kids who ARE born and are abused, abandonned, neglected and otherwise treated little better by their 'caretakers' than the children currenly killed through abortion. did alcoholism end with prohibition. hmmm. (sorry, i'm talking through a cold medicine high)

i had a college prof who used to say "the church has its hand on the crotch of society" with a wry and knowing smile to the class. it used to infuriate me. but it's true - well, not the church, but God in the sense that he cares about the most intimate details of our lives. does God care more about the heart or the outward appearance? because there were alot of hearts that still denied the sanctity of life even when abortion was illegal.

i'm not going for wishy-washy, just saying i think from agreeing that it is wrong the next step becomes pretty hazy to me.

j

Can Alice, or anyone here, actually defend the view that it is morally justifiable that a certain class of murders should remain permissible?

You know, maybe Alice would also like to see abortionist-shootings legalized too. That would, at least, make it more fair.

Try this: every time you use the word "abortion," replace it with the words "Jew-killing" or "nigger-lynching" and tell me how much sense you're making then.

Thanks for the offer, Josiah, but I'd rather vomit in rage on the shoes of abortion-tolerating politicians.

hi Ticked. chill out.

"the woman's right to choose" is a phrase that is very much thrown around and not thought about, i agree.

and issues of privacy are definitely not the central issue here.

but if the statistics show that if abortion is made illegal, women will die in back alleyways after coat-hanger operations, does this or does this not nullify the "sanctity of human life" that we are supposedly trying to preserve? and for a very specific portion of the population, namely impoverished women? (this is a real, not rhetorical, question)

also, state-madated education makes me uncomfortable. why would i be forced to look at an ultrasound (a really fuzzy, bad picture that represents almost nothing to me) when the reality of the situation is going on right inside me and is, for the time being, a part of me? maybe they should also put up big pictures of clogged arteries over every ice cream stand (i know i'm asking for it with that comparison, but hey, at least i didn't use the most tired of all tired comparisons, the holocaust) or pictures of starving congolese orphans on my cellphone or pictures of blackened lungs on my cigarette pack (oops, they did do that, in Canada).

i'm not comfortable that women get as little information about their health as they do, in this country. but i have to say, planned parenthood is not the problem. they at least give out free contraception and counselling to girls who need it.

just as a disclaimer: i would never personally have an abortion. but then i'm young, moderately healthy, and married. i'm not desperate in any way.

about the "right" of the father: if you're married, sure, you've pledged to make those types of decisions together. if not, you probably haven't. he's not doing the work of child-bearing, is he?

anyways.

Ticked, I may be swilling an enlightenment attitude towards being dispassionate, but I just wonder how healthy it is for you, personally, to be that angry about it. Purely pragmatically, it can't be all that helpful. You certainly wont win any converts. But hey, draw the line or something, but then who's being a modernist...

Ticked, hysterical references to nazis and lynchings does nothing to strengthen your position. i think you're a little too out of control for us to continue this as a rational discussion.

Hi all, I've kinda been sneeking aroung the blog for a few months and finally decided to chime in.

I agree with Ken that this article's basic premise is irrelevant to the overriding question of the morality of abortion. Mr. Kristof (and apparenty "most Americans") needs to dwell more on his statement that a fetus is "considerably less than a human being." An eight celled zygote is a genetically unique set of human cells. That constitutes an individual to me. Is it not a "human being" because it is wholly dependent on the mother for survival? A newborn is just as helpless without others. It seems to me that ending the life for any reason of an unoffending individual is the definition of murder.

That said, I feel that the remainder of Mr. Kristof's argument is poorly thought through. Of course the media is going to swarm to abortion cases. How often is there a new crime for them to cover? The fact is, that making abortion illegal on any level, from misdemeanor to first degree murder, would drastically reduce the number of abortions simply by preventing it from being a walkinandbedonewithit procedure. I'm afraid I don't have the faith in human nature to think that a woman wanting an abortion for convenience would have terrible issue with continuing because she some an ultrasound. I also think a woman having one in desperation of any sort would only feel guilty without feeling any more freedom to not have the abortion. I do, however, think that a woman who has to risk her life having a backalley, coat hanger abortion is going to think long and hard about the feasibility of carrying the baby.

I have no doubt that many women very regretfully have abortions because of situations they feel necessitate them. It is unfortunate that we live in an imperfect world where people live extremely difficult, complicated lives. And I certainly can't criticize anyone if they've made mistakes that led them to those lives. Abortion is an instance where we feel we think we have found a way to outdo life. It's a way out for many people. I just think that the ability to do something doesn't make automatically make it a valid action. Anyway, I've gone too long.

ps Ticked, you're so blind with anger that you're attacking people who basically agree with you almost as much as those you hold in such comtempt. As a result the people "on your side" have had to waste time dealing with you rather than furthering the discussion. If you calm down people will be much more likely to pay attention to you.

Alice, Jerah, Josiah,

The fact is that your comments are avoiding the issue. You're own rhetoric and pleas for "calming down" are disgusting.

Those of you who hold the view that this most heinous form of child-murder should remain legal, I defy you to actually defend such a view.

If Alice wishes to chicken-out, that only demonstrates the utter bankruptcy and indefensiblenes of her view. I'm not trying to "win converts" here by being "pleasant" about evil or your immoral views. I'm telling you that your views are horribly wrong.

If your view can be defended, then let's here it.

And, Jerah, the Nazi Holocaust pales in comparision to the contemporary abortion holocaust. If it is a tired comparision, I suppose that is only because one has become tired of a reality that is too uncomfortable to face.

BenW, those who agree with me (that abortion should not be legal) don't need to waste their time "dealing with me."
I have not "attacked" anyone at all, let alone those who agree with me on this point.
I have said, with all appropriate "vitriol," that the view that abortion should be legal is unconscionable in the extreme.

By all means, further the discussion.

How has my anger so blinded me as to prevent me or anyone from furthering the discussion? I have challenged those who disagree to further the discussion my presenting a defense of their view.

When I counsel those in crisis pregnancies considering abortion, my tenor is starkly different, I assure you. But that is simply not the issue at hand here.

It would make me exceedingly happy if no one ever compared anything to the Holocaust ever again. If you think a particular practice is genocide, by all means say so. But comparing abortion (or any other killings) to the Holocaust both cheapens the awful implications of abortion and discraces the memory of the people who died in Nazi gas chamvers. It's a lazy comparison.

For what it's worth, I would be dancing in the streets if abortion were made illegal tomorrow. Ben Wardell makes some terrific points to this end. But I don't think for a minute that this would end abortion. The doctors I work for -- again, some of the top high-risk perinatologists in the southeast -- see a great many woman who blithely attempt to end their pregnancies by abandoning their diets of taking vast ammounts of pills. I'm not yet convinced that the vaunted connection between mother and child is in effect with these woman. (And these are women who are enrolled in medical care, which is rarer than you might think.) I think that a bit of education, mandated or not, would help. And I'm still concerned about the subtlties involved in cases where a mothers life is as risk, or when a baby is about to suffer and dreadful, lingering death. I'd love to hear a political solution to these cases, but I suspect that no such solution exists.

Ticked,

I'm not sure how my views that

a. abortion is murder
b. choosing abortion seems to be an existentially weak choice to make compared to adoption
and
c. you need to relax

are "disgusting" or "horribly wrong." But hey, I'm open to the possibility.

Further, it seems by some bizarre sense of democracy most folks here be on the same page, cocerned more with discussing the various nuances of abortion in specific instances and its psychological effects, in particular discussing Kristoffs article. I think, with a few exceptions, that most folks on this blog think that abortion is wrong.

Maybe I'm misreading most folks quotes but the person seemingly most "off topic" or "missing the point" is, well, you. Nobody's disagreeing with you, just suggesting a change in method. You're preachign to the choir. If you need an outlet for your anger, I'm sure there's a local abortion clinic you can picket or something.

Who the hell is Ticked and why is he a bigot? Abortion is a horrible thing but I counted the references to abortion in Christ's teachings and there happened to be zero. There were however a bunch about loving people. Of course, as Christians we see abortion as an act of hate. Other people don't. We think they're wrong. I don't know if there is a difference between that kind of hate and the hate that drips from every comment this Ticked guy like the oil leak in my truck. Maybe we should take him to a mechanic. Hole people don't get to have holy hatred dude.

It's been very interesting to read everyone's take on this problem. I am not about to go head-to-head with anyone (Ticked) about what I think because I am not about provoking a rabid opinion any further. It's good to see a few women joining the discussion (although guys, I have enjoyed your passionate views). But ultimately these things that are so hard to grasp what to do it is obvious to me. I want to drown it in prayer. Because when you have met a happily married non-Christian woman with two beautiful children that blurts out, "I had an abortion" you don't really feel like discussing the finer points of "what were you thinking!" grace, love, and leaving the complicated culture changing issues up to the only one who can change it: God. I mean you guys in Chatt. Do you know the story behind why the Chatt abortion clinic closed? It's pretty awesome. feel free to ask me. I have not been given the gift of logic enough to debate the issue(as many of you all are) but when I feel the Holy Spirit on the move in my heart when I think of what is happening, or will happen, I have to train myself to pray that moment. The Lord does amazing things today y'all. Let's believe that.

And BTW when that child becomes more than a fuzzy picture from an ultrasound you find yourself praying every day. I can seriously identify with those moms that shake their kids, you can loose it easily! God is the ultimate nurturer, not me.

I totally agree with Katie, if only because she named her kid after me, which I really respect. I'd name a kid after me too.

Totten, Ticked is angry with the position that abortion is legalized murder and morally okay. Judging by his previous post,I don't think he hates the people who are having abortions, he hates the position that makes it possible. Correct me if I'm wrong Ticked. Sure his tactics and expressions could be better, but his anger is justified. In a way, its like Jesus' righteous anger at what the Jews had made the temple. As far as biblical reference to abortion, The sixth commandment is Thou shalt not murder.

I agree with JosiahQ that most everyone here believes abortion is wrong. We just disagree on what that means politically, or if the problem should/can be solved by the government. The whole complexity of it unfortunately leads to political apathy, although it definitely moves one to prayer.

for some reason I am a little bit intimidated by this whole conversation, but I find myself reading it each day it has been up. so here it goes... i think that all this conversation is good to have, and important in many ways. I think so because we can never get an accurate take on a situation unless every side is presented, for myself, I would absolutely include Ticked's opinion in that. I wonder what someone who is avidly pro choice would think about all these comments, or someone who actually has had an abortion themselves.
I think that Jerah had a really great point that she wouldn't personally have an abortion, but that she has never been in a desperate situation herself. I really think that there are desperate situations, that they do exist. it is a fine line, but it's true. as cliche as it sounds I really don't think that you can ever really understand someone or someone's personal situation until you can actually put yourself there. And see how it is possible. again, I couldn't see myself ever having an abortion personally, but i can absolutely see desperate situations where girls, and women feel like there is not another choice. And until we can give them other choices that are different and better then the one's we SOMETIMES offer now, (because they obviously are not as effective as we would all like) women and girls are still going to feel completely isolated. whoa, run on sentence.

I appreciate AndyP being clear about what I hate. I hope that is helpful to those who concluded my views are bigoted (or that I am a bigot).

I mean, shit, you folks never use the F-word when you are being highly emphatic?

Josiah, I said your insistance that I "calm down" is disgusting because it presupposes there is something inappropriate about my outrage at holding that abortion should be legal (not that I said you held that view). Here's a "various nuance" for you: believing that abortion is wrong does not make one's view that it should be legal any less "problematic."

Mesh, I will continue to make the connection between abortion and Nazi atrocities, because it is a perfectly apt comparison. Sorry you don't see that.

Katie, yes, why don't you tell us about the abortion clinic in Chatt. being closed down. How did that happen?

I think there is/was something inapropriate about your outrage because you aren't screaming into "the void", whether or not its right for them to take it personally, most folks would be and are affected by your words. There's nothing wrong with exercising and with suggesting the exercize of a more gentle tone.

Sure, Christ didn't much care for sin and even got angry at it, but he was also far wiser than we and presented many an example of charity and wisdom in dealing with sinners. Woman at the well?

Given that you, Ticked, aren't Christ, it might be helpful for you to try to be a little nicer. You'll certainly win more friends and influence a few more enemies.

No, Ticked, it isn't an apt comparison. The Nazis killed six million Jews in an intentional effort to eliminate a particular race of people from the face of the earth, or at least from the face of German earth. The motivations were hatred, jealousy and a de-humanization of their victims. Abotion shares with the Holucaust a fundamental de-humanization, rooted in a warped form of compassion (Walker Percy makes this comparison exceedingly well), but the tragedy of abortion does not share the intentionality, hatred and envy inherent to the Nazi extermination campaign. Abortion is not a "round 'em up and kill 'em" sort of affair.

And even if the comparison is more reasonable than I think, there's still something massively insensitive to a specific generation of Jews to use their deaths as verbal shorthand for any type of killing you find particularly heinous. I don't think it's fair to the aborted babies, either, whose lives deserve to be memorialized on their own terms, not covered over with cliches.

Ticked has provided us with a very good example of why america has become so polarized. people with nothing to offer but emotionally-charged, spittle-flecked rants stampede over folks who are willing to make thoughtful, considered contributions to the debate. and as the rhetoric becomes increasingly intense, the more mild-mannered among us wander away until all that's left are the barking attack dogs who can shriek but don't listen. for an example of this phenomenon, watch a "debate" on any cable news station.

Ticked, one of the more pathetic aspects of your behavior is that even while you wallow in verbal abuse, inappropriate analogical terms and ad hominem attacks, you have given no indication that you consider your own oft-repeated position to be defensible. in fact, your manner serves to imply just the opposite.

mesh, your thoughts about the comparison between the halocaust and abortion were especially well expressed.

You know, I was thinking about this whole discussion today, and I realized that, despite our refutations of his article, Mr. Kristof did an excellent job in accomplishing it's purpose. We've all been able to dismiss him on a philosophical level, because that is precisely the side of the abortion argument that he wasn't concerned with. I know that all of my middle ground to left wing friends, most of whom are very down on the practice of abortion, would be very swayed by this article, because their view on the matter is not so strong that they would be willing to compromise their own convenience for it. For as adamently as I disagree with him, I must admit that he has pinpointed the greastest obstacle to the anti-abortion cause. It's not that most people strongly hold to a woman's right to have an abortion. It's that most people don't strongly hold to any view on abortion. As far as I can tell, this is a problem that we can do little about outside of prayer as Katie says. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to approach this issue elsewise?
I think that abortion is undeniably a holocaust of its own. It is very different from the Nazi's in that it is driven by apathy rather a concerted application of hatred. Ticked I must admit that I'm appreciating your emotion more and more, though I still think you should be exceedingly careful not to let it spew in all directions. Whether you meant to or not, you definitely appeared to be lashing out at anyone who did not exactly replicate your stance on the matter, when in reality it is a great benefit to have people of like mind and different temperment on the same side. I know as a mild temepered person I need to remember that as well.

Josiah, so you're saying that my response was inappropriate because people were affected by it?
That's interesting.
In any case, I never claimed to be Christ, and I was addressing the idea that abortion should be legal... I wasn't evangelizing. I also wasn't trying to win friends. I was responding to the viewpoint of Kristoff (and the Portuguese).

Mesh, please notice that my specific comparision was to the German nation "standing around" while their neighbors were legally slaughtered.
I don't consider the Holocaust a cliche.
How would you react newspaper articles actually suggesting that maybe killing Jews should be legal? That's not a cliche. Think about such a situation happening in real life. Put yourself in that moment. That's not a cliche. That's the comparision.

Alice, if I have been verbally abusive, *who* did I abuse? And how, exactly, did I do that? What are the specific ad hominem attacks I've made? Against whom?

Have I "given no indication that I consider my own oft-repeated position to be defensible"? Really? You don't think I've indicated that my position (...what was that position again? Oh yeah: "abortion should NOT be legal"...) is defensible? You don't think I've even *indicated* that I *consider* it defensible?

Well, let me help you out. Yeah. I consider it pretty darn defensible. Now, how, you may ask would I actually defend it? I would defend it by appealing to assumptions in the views of those who hold that abortion should be legal, but oppose making, say --shooting abortionists--- legal. I would ask "Why don't you think we should make shooting abortionists legal?" If they have an answer, then THAT is MY answer.

Since you're so incredibly thoughtful, why don't you give this some serious thought? I mean, while us dogs bark it out, take some time off and really think about it.

Well, Ticked, if I saw that in the paper, I suppose I'd get ready to die. Thanks for bringing that up.

I'm going to assume that you didn't know I'm Jewish, and weren't baiting me, and just let that one pass.

But again, I firmly believe that the Holocaust creeps closer to a cliche every time it's used as a metaphor for other killings. And I went back and checked your comparisons of the Holocaust and today's legal abortions. You're right: you did compare our apathy concerning abortion with the apathy of many Germans during the 1940s. And while distinctions remain there as well, I think that's at the very least a valid point to discuss.

But you said other things as well: You said that Kristof is partaking in the sprit of Nazism, and that our society is "WORSE than Nazi Germany." And I'm saying that's comparing apples and oranges. Granted, they are both fruits leading to the death of millions, but they're still different fruits.

I realize that Ticked hates abortion and thats Ok. When someone is that adamantly against trying to understand an opposing party and the way they think, that is not loving, and leads me to believe he hates those people. But that of course I am not trying to understand why he hates them either. Its all a rich tapestry. And oh yes, Ticked, I am Jewish too, and the next time you use the Holocaust for emotional blackmail to prove a point, I'm gonna tell my Jewish mother and she might strangle you. And am I mistaken, but did you say you counsel women in crisis pregnacies? Was that a joke? I'd like to believe that they wouldn't let you near those women, but maybe things are more dire than any of us suspected. I hope that was a joke.
Unfortunately for us Mesh, we have no racial slur for all theses people of WASP descent. I guess we call them limeys but it doesn't really pack a punch you know?

Ticked, just consider that mebbe you should re-evaluate your approach on a pragmatic level. Heck, just look at it selfishly: if you want people to like you you might trying changing your tone. Of course "making people like you" is no way to go about forming an informed stance on an important moral issue, but neither is seemingly doing your best to piss them off either. I don't think you're wrong Ticked, just a jerk.

I think we should all take a deep breath and bring the discussion back to abortion rather than Ticked.

or maybe we should all take a deep breath and start an entirely new blog on "why don't you think we should make shooting Ticked legal?"

just as, you know, a topic of discussion.

sorry, ben w, i do think you're right about changing the subject.

so katie, what happened to that clinic?

my two cents...
going from my very feminist personality to my redeemed soul, years later, I have changed from one side of this conversation to the complete opposite. (to those that don't know me, andy's sis-in-law, former pagan until college around meeting tim) I have seen many close friends go through having abortions and struggling with their decision. Many times without telling anyone for years, true pain despite their void words that it is only a mass of tissue. Mesh's idea of viewing the sonogram before the procedure is a beautiful idea b/c i know from their experience that it is an emotional decision that you just want to convince yourself that it is just a ball of mass. However, w/o the presence of the HS I still believe many will go through with the procedure.

To me it seems like Christian responsibility and caring for the children of the fatherless, should be brought up in this discussion. I myself would like to have children from my own womb, however, in my great desire to have women stop choosing abortion and choose adoption (if they are unfit for raising a child) I would like to increase their options by adopting. I know there is a great amount of red tape and cost, but it seems like the greater the number of families desiring to adopt, the more available the option will seem to women considering abortion. I see so many Christians defending that abortion is murder but not offering another option in which they will take on the needs of the community.
I am very impressed with the crisis pregnancies desire to help women see that there are other options, and dare I put them in the same sentence, planned parenthoods contraceptive help (cheap) and counseling.
Ken, you’re a great example for men, but honestly most men/the fathers are not involved or care about being part of that “choice.”

i'm not sure how to make links, but here is a website with the history of the abortion clinic in chatt. you have the largest city in the US w/OUT an abortion clinic today. http://www.resourcefoundation.org/Current/S&L/natlmem.shtml

it's a very pretty place, i've visited the memorial with a friend who has her baby's name in the memorial.

Wow. A lot of shouting.

I often wonder if the real problem here is terminology.

The word is "abortion." What if "baby killing" was used instead?

I think if some clip-haired screechy woman said, "I believe in a woman's right to choose baby killing as an option," I might respect her more.

I have often found in my 30+ years on this Earth that issues (and positions on those issues) are often clouded by the watered-down, soft, convenient, and yes (gasp), "poltically correct" terminolgy used to name or label those issues.

How many "babies have been killed" in the time people on this blog have been condemning how Ticked expressed his condemnation of "abortion?"

Proceed with endless debate...

This change in terminology can only lead to more shouting. It assumes that people who favor abortion are consciously pro-murder; either that this is the case across the board but they can only get away with killing the unborn, or that such killing, in their mind, constitutes a valid exception. For the most part, this is not the case. We are not dealing with holocaustic Nazi-demons intent on ridding the world of infants. There is no conspiracy to use nicer words in order to get away with something they know to be wrong. Rather, the issue itself is whether or not abortion is "killing babies." Most of those who want to see abortion as a right, or at least as a privilege not easily impeded, will argue that it is not. And their point is not so simple to dismiss. It is not immediately obvious that personhood begins at conception. I believe that it does, but this belief is a result, not of my politics, but of my theology.

I am convinced that the church and those in it must treat abortion as sin. Not by insisting that all sides call it "baby killing," and not by demanding that it be made a capital crime, but by the only legitimate option left to a people who have themselves been redeemed. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is with us all.

I think you are Kevin Bevil and I think you pretty much summed up everything that is true about the situation.

i second that. kevin is dead-on right...

Yes, Kevin, thank you. a focus on grace would solve a lot (all, rather, i suppose) of the issues that lead to so much hatred within the Church and bitterness towards it . . .

I think you are Kevin Courter, and I'm happy you joined the conversation. Your point about differing perceptions is very important, I think, and it's the main reason why "yelling never brought the cows back to the barn," as the saying goes. (Actually, I don't think there is any such saying. I think I just made it up.) But I'm still curious what you mean when you refer to "the only legitimate option left to a people who have themselves been redeemed." I don't see where you define that, and I'm still mighty curious...

What would it be like if we could fuse Kevin Courter with Kevin Bevil? That would be amazing...

so let the real "Kevin" come forth . . .

Aaron, I intended to define it in the last sentence, which, in its original draft was simply, "grace." If you'd like, you can blame Kevin Bevil for any confusion. Perhaps it came across as though the "only legitimate option" were a specific action. I was thinking more in terms of acting out of our identity with Christ. That, just as it is wrong to treat abortion with the false compassion of a "whatever is right for you" approach, it is equally damaging to stand atop a private Sinai shrieking invectives. Taken by itself, the Law kills. It has its necessary and proper place, but what possible reason could we have for not leading with the Gospel?

I think anyone who thinks that it is Kevin Courter is akin to the Nazis and should go to hell.

"We are talking now of summer evenings in Knoxville Tennessee in the time that I lived there so successfully disguised to myself as a child. ...After a little I am taken in and put to be. Sleep, soft smiling, draws me unto her: and those receive me, who quietly treat me, as one familiar and well-beloved in that home: but will not, no, will not, not now, not ever; but will not ever tell me who I am." -James Agee

This is wreaking havoc on my personal sense of identity; on the other hand, can anyone provide some positive incentives for being Kevin Bevil? What do I get?

Ok, Ok, Ok, its Kevin Courter, but maybe we can pretend for a minute that it's Kevin Arnold, from the Wonder Years. And how did he know I'm in Knoxville?

Well, I could have noticed that your email address ends in "utk.edu," but this is not, in fact, what happened. The quote is from Agee's A Death in the Family, from which Samuel Barber borrowed lyrics for his Knoxville: Summer of 1915. I was more interested in the last lines; that it is set in Knoxville is coincidental.

speaking of "summers of ___" I read in the latest Rolling Stone that Bryan Adams is, in fact, a pervert.

The issue itself is whether or not the Holocaust is "killing persons." Most of those who want to see jewicide as a right, or at least as a privilege not easily impeded, will argue that it is not. And their point is not so simple to dismiss. It is not immediately obvious that personhood belongs to Jews. I believe that it does, but this belief is a result, not of my politics, but of my theology.

I am convinced that the church and those in it must treat killing Jews as sin... But not by insisting that all sides call it "person killing," and not by demanding that it be made a capital crime.

Oh good... you learned sarcasm. I'm so proud of you.

Omg thats right! Please come see me and my friends! ;)

I really must protest any continued slander of my name.